Curse

Dmitri3 · Dec 30, 2008, 05:27 PM // 17:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Arching Healer

Remove HB fixes ?

GW.

Definition.
And getting off-topic, are we?

Shendaar · Dec 30, 2008, 05:40 PM // 17:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dmitri3

Fair enough. Now please reread what I said about AI response time being balanced out by how exploitable and stupid they are.

I personally don't think their weaknesses justify their super reaction time. It is sort of like skill balancing, you can't really claim that a overpowered skill is balanced because the skill next to it is a direct counter or is just as overpowered.

Until their reaction time is adjusted to be more "human-like", they will continue to be used as part of a team build rather than a replacement to a missing player. Them being dumb should be the price to pay to roll with a bot.

Dmitri3 · Dec 30, 2008, 06:54 PM // 18:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shendaar

I personally don't think their weaknesses justify their super reaction time. It is sort of like skill balancing, you can't really claim that a overpowered skill is balanced because the skill next to it is a direct counter or is just as overpowered.

Until their reaction time is adjusted to be more "human-like", they will continue to be used as part of a team build rather than a replacement to a missing player. Them being dumb should be the price to pay to roll with a bot.

So you're saying that if you go against party with heroes and you have 8 players, you should automatically win.

Here, using heroes:

Pros:
Good at multi-tasking
Fast response time (no lag)
Do what they're told and don't complain

Cons:
Need to be micro'ed for maximum effect, thus player loses concentration for his own duty
Pathetic at kiting
Can't weapon-swap, either stuck with 40/40 or shield set
Stuck in one place if "owner" of heroes lagged out, but didn't leave the game yet
Can't interact with flags, gates or catapults
Run and stay in awkward places (lava, stone spores...)
Only can use limited supply of skills/builds
Will cast with anti-cast hexes/conditions on
Will wand with anti-melee hexes on
Predictable to interrupts, bulls'... pretty much everything if you ever played with Heroes
No skill prioritization
...

I could go on, but this all just seems one big QQ thread. I bet if Anet caves in, in 24 hours, there would be twice as much QQ about changes being too punishing/stupid.

Shendaar · Dec 30, 2008, 07:29 PM // 19:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dmitri3

So you're saying that if you go against party with heroes and you have 8 players, you should automatically win.

Here, using heroes:

Pros:
Good at multi-tasking
Fast response time (no lag)
Do what they're told and don't complain

Cons:
Need to be micro'ed for maximum effect, thus player loses concentration for his own duty
Pathetic at kiting
Can't weapon-swap, either stuck with 40/40 or shield set
Stuck in one place if "owner" of heroes lagged out, but didn't leave the game yet
Can't interact with flags, gates or catapults
Run and stay in awkward places (lava, stone spores...)
Only can use limited supply of skills/builds
Will cast with anti-cast hexes/conditions on
Will wand with anti-melee hexes on
Predictable to interrupts, bulls'... pretty much everything if you ever played with Heroes
No skill prioritization
...

I could go on, but this all just seems one big QQ thread. I bet if Anet caves in, in 24 hours, there would be twice as much QQ about changes being too punishing/stupid.

No, but I do think they should be inferior to a good/decent player in every way. They should be a backup, not a better alternative. If they have so many cons, then why are so many shitty guilds getting carried on the ladder by their smite bots?

The only reason I QQ is because I'm just tired of fighting the same triple smite BS almost every match. We still win almost every time, but it's just annoying as hell.

Dmitri3 · Dec 30, 2008, 07:48 PM // 19:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shendaar

No, but I do think they should be inferior to a good/decent player in every way. They should be a backup, not a better alternative. If they have so many cons, then why are so many shitty guilds getting carried on the ladder by their smite bots?

The only reason I QQ is because I'm just tired of fighting the same triple smite BS almost every match. We still win almost every time, but it's just annoying as hell.

Well, I don't agree with "Heroes are bad". However, everyone running same builds on heroes is what is mostly annoying. If anything, Heroes AI could use some improvement so they could do something else that smite/tainted/interrupt...

Shitty guilds are getting carried on the ladder because they don't have (enough) good/decent players, hence heroes are better.

Killed u man · Dec 30, 2008, 07:53 PM // 19:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dmitri3

Cons:[/B]
Need to be micro'ed for maximum effect, thus player loses concentration for his own duty The intire point of these Me/Rt's, and Smiter Heroes IS so you don't have to micro them. In HA, AT MOST you'll ever have to manually cast a weapon/heal on the Ghostly Hero, because they often don't recognize Allies as "healable". In GvG, even tough they're underused, but that's because the GvG mentality is stale as fcuk, it's pretty much autopilot for win.
Pathetic at kiting You CLEARLY did NOT play frontline against a hero. Sure, they are about as good as your average PvE'er when it comes down to AoE spells, but against frontline, mainly Bull's, they are GODLY, to say the least. For every 1 Bull's you land decently on a hero, you'll miss 10, because they KNOW when you target them, and often pre-kite, aswell as them sometimes "knowing" your using Bull's, and just stand still.
Can't weapon-swap, either stuck with 40/40 or shield set Why is this necessary? In a previous discussion on QQ-shitterforums, the conclusion was drawn that weapon swapping, DOES give you an advantage, but like the +29HP mods, is something that is REALLY unlikely to make or break match. Even so, You can MANUALLY swap heroes weaponsets from your inventory IN A MATCH, so if you're facing any kind of spike, you can easily give him a shield pre-match.
Stuck in one place if "owner" of heroes lagged out, but didn't leave the game yet Ok, but regardless of having heroes, if one person lagged out, you pretty much lost anyways, unless you're running hexway. This arguement simply doesn't count, for being true in ANY scenario, even without heroes
Can't interact with flags, gates or catapults Small price to pay for having bots interrupt 1/4's, aswell as the fact that it's really unlikely you'll ever put a Hero on a flag bar. If you're that desperate you "need" a hero to flag, you lose the match anyways.
Run and stay in awkward places (lava, stone spores...) REALLY small price to pay, don't tell me flagging heroes once every 30 seconds "breaks" your concentration.
Only can use limited supply of skills/builds But the builds that ARE used are as overpowered as can be. Sure, a hero will never be able to run a decent Monk, but that's why you give them the bitch bars. The same way you're NOT going to take Chop Chop on Monk, and Three Pounds on Frontline, you're not going to put heroes on bars that require insight.
Will cast with anti-cast hexes/conditions on Argueable. From experience, heroes will NEVER kill themselves with any anti-cast spell, (Only insidious is known to have heroes wand themselves to death). Even so, I have the feeling that when a team is under pressure, heroes do tend to be more carefull on their health loss, even if they individually are at full health, there does seem to be a code that prevents them from applying more pressure to their own team.
Will wand with anti-melee hexes on Small price to pay for having a dead enemy team in about 1 minute
Predictable to interrupts, bulls'... pretty much everything if you ever played with Heroes Predidictable to interrupts? Don't understand what you're saying here. Yeah, you can "often" feel the interrupt comming, it's that sixth sense that tells you: "The hero is watching me", but what are you going to do? Not cast at all, are atleast try to get a skill off? Regardless, knowing a hero is going to interrupt, doesn't change the fact that he WILL still interrupt it, because you can't fake a hero.
No skill prioritization Probably the best "con" arguement, but still a REALLY small price to pay. With NF giving us the bar compression buff we couldhave never dreamed off, I doubt there really is "1" skill on GvG bars where people say: "Oh, it doesn't matter if this gets interrupt 24/7, it's not important anyways", because if that where to be the truth, well you'dd simply take another, better skill.

You make some valid points, but most of them simply don't outweigh the advantages you get, from getting interrupts on 1/4, and even 1/8's, aswell as SICK healing/protting (It's just a matter of time before GvG'ers discover the power of the Me/Rt WoW, WoS spammer), aswell as all the other things that come free with the package. (Sick kiting, unless against AoE, always available, not bitching, no "crappy" days, but always top performance)

Reverend Dr · Dec 30, 2008, 08:49 PM // 20:49

Borat, you are missing the most important thing.

One person on ranger with two other ranger heros makes a perfectly synced spike every time.

Trylo · Dec 30, 2008, 09:37 PM // 21:37

heroes cannot interrupt 1/8 cast as they cannot know you are going to use a skill before you use it. you just got unlucky and cast the exact 1/8 of a second that the hero interrupted another person, and that is generally what happens when they hit 1/4 spells too (although i have seen tease on LS before).

really, i dont care about the heroes that much anymore after playing against and with them for the past week. they epicly fail at hitting res skills, which is really what the interrupts in past teams have been for. who cares if you can interrupt the infuse that would have saved a life if you cant hit the res that brings them right back up. the biggest reason that i have lost in HA against heroway is that they always seem to take off channeling, and two monks without channeling vs LC is sad.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reverend Dr

Borat, you are missing the most important thing.

One person on ranger with two other ranger heros makes a perfectly synced spike every time.

too bad theres no DW. although i have done this before

Dmitri3 · Dec 30, 2008, 10:44 PM // 22:44

Don't worry, it's not just you, all these quotes kill my eyes too.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Killed u man

You CLEARLY did NOT play frontline against a hero. Sure, they are about as good as your average PvE'er when it comes down to AoE spells, but against frontline, mainly Bull's, they are GODLY, to say the least. For every 1 Bull's you land decently on a hero, you'll miss 10, because they KNOW when you target them, and often pre-kite, aswell as them sometimes "knowing" your using Bull's, and just stand still.

I play quite a bit on frontline, thank you very much. Bull'sing Hero is a bit different that using bull's on player, but it's still pretty doable and quite easy to do once you get the hang of it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Killed u man

Why is this necessary? In a previous discussion on QQ-shitterforums, the conclusion was drawn that weapon swapping, DOES give you an advantage, but like the +29HP mods, is something that is REALLY unlikely to make or break match. Even so, You can MANUALLY swap heroes weaponsets from your inventory IN A MATCH, so if you're facing any kind of spike, you can easily give him a shield pre-match.

Because shield set = easy interrupts. But no shield set = dead hero.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Killed u man

Ok, but regardless of having heroes, if one person lagged out, you pretty much lost anyways, unless you're running hexway. This arguement simply doesn't count, for being true in ANY scenario, even without heroes

Player may reconnect, you just have to compensate for that time. But when you have heroes, a simple connection problem from one person gets you 2, 3 or 4 players short.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Killed u man

Small price to pay for having bots interrupt 1/4's, aswell as the fact that it's really unlikely you'll ever put a Hero on a flag bar. If you're that desperate you "need" a hero to flag, you lose the match anyways.

Flag is at the base, player rezes at base, will he take the flag to speed up flag running? Well, hero certainly can't. In fact, he'll prolly run through lava and almost get himself killed. Yes, it's a small price to pay, but a price nevertheless.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Killed u man

Argueable. From experience, heroes will NEVER kill themselves with any anti-cast spell, (Only insidious is known to have heroes wand themselves to death). Even so, I have the feeling that when a team is under pressure, heroes do tend to be more carefull on their health loss, even if they individually are at full health, there does seem to be a code that prevents them from applying more pressure to their own team.

Still fun to watch them get diversioned 3 times in a row.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Killed u man

Predidictable to interrupts? Don't understand what you're saying here. Yeah, you can "often" feel the interrupt comming, it's that sixth sense that tells you: "The hero is watching me", but what are you going to do? Not cast at all, are atleast try to get a skill off? Regardless, knowing a hero is going to interrupt, doesn't change the fact that he WILL still interrupt it, because you can't fake a hero.

Ever considered interrupting a hero?

In the end, all these "small prices to pay" add up. And yes, it's still better to take a good player instead of a hero.

P.S. I apologize to Shendaar and others, I have been a bit too blunt/direct in this thread... Though I still stand by my opinion that heroes aren't the problem in current state of PvP.

MercenaryKnight · Dec 30, 2008, 10:55 PM // 22:55

We all know how a.net fixes imbalanced stuff. Nerf it to uselessness or take it out of the game. Look at smiter's boon when they "fixed that". Your more likely to get them to remove heroes from pvp than you are at fixing their ai and reaction times.

I say jump on the abuse and start bringing 2 mesmer heroes to lock on to monks spike down quickly and hope that the enemy team doesn't body block the dumb ai before you can win.

The Fallen One · Dec 31, 2008, 06:46 AM // 06:46

Okay, this is undeniably beating a horse that has bad AI and doesn't even realize you're beating it.
As many people have cited, Heroes are simply BAD. They can't do anything quite right. The lists have been made, the thoughts expounded upon.
In GvG, if you're taking a Hero Mesmer rather than a real one, and another team comes up with a real one, you're dead. Why? The real one is going to know WTF he's doing. He's going to lock down your monks, interrupt your Resurrection Signets, and rub his butt cheeks all over your face. Meanwhile, your Hero is probably going to catch a Reversal of Fortune that was just getting casted to push bars a little. After that, he's going to interrupt a Devastating Hammer, and then it's going to run in circles because Anet is bad at programming like that.
Give it up people. Heroes AREN'T better than real people. To be honest, I just laugh when I get my RoF CoFed.

Lorinda · Dec 31, 2008, 10:31 AM // 10:31

Yes, i have checked myself before I typed this.

If these heroes are only to fill up the team on almost every map.
Then make HA 6 man again. I rather see the heroes go then that HA stays 8 man with all these super bots in them.

And please look at skills before one updates them.....
But that is off topic ^_^

Shendaar · Dec 31, 2008, 01:52 PM // 13:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dmitri3

Ever considered interrupting a hero?

In the end, all these "small prices to pay" add up. And yes, it's still better to take a good player instead of a hero.

Ever considered interrupting a real player? Aside from them not using a fast cast set there isn't really any difference so I don't really understand what you are trying to prove. If anything, I often find the casting pattern of real players easier to predict.

It takes a very good player to compete with a Tease wow mesmer, a smite monk or even a tainted necro. They are all simple bar that benefit greatly from their multi-tasking skill and reaction time.

My point is that in a competitive game, I think the AI should be no match to even a decent player on pretty much all aspect of their play. The simple fact that they can be exploited by terrible teams to carry team on the ladder should be a good enough proof that they are a problem. Why anybody who made the effort of fielding a team of 8 should even have to deal with 5-6 random tards and their heroes is beyond me.

Rhamia Darigaz · Dec 31, 2008, 02:01 PM // 14:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by FengShuiDove

Despite what OP thought, you can't get 1/8s cast time; [Glyph of Sacrifice] reads "instantly" but actually makes the cast time 1/4s.

yes you can. your story about glyph sac isn't proof of your point, the skill is just worded improperly.

Dmitri3 · Dec 31, 2008, 03:04 PM // 15:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shendaar

Ever considered interrupting a real player? Aside from them not using a fast cast set there isn't really any difference so I don't really understand what you are trying to prove. If anything, I often find the casting pattern of real players easier to predict.

It takes a very good player to compete with a Tease wow mesmer, a smite monk or even a tainted necro. They are all simple bar that benefit greatly from their multi-tasking skill and reaction time.

My point is that in a competitive game, I think the AI should be no match to even a decent player on pretty much all aspect of their play. The simple fact that they can be exploited by terrible teams to carry team on the ladder should be a good enough proof that they are a problem. Why anybody who made the effort of fielding a team of 8 should even have to deal with 5-6 random tards and their heroes is beyond me.

Interrupts were never easy to begin with. Interrupting 3/4's however shouldn't be a problem for experienced mesmer. And I'd rather have rez interrupted that some 1/4 or 1/2 cast.
What player lacks in response time, they make up in being able to optimize the effects of their skills. If you can't interrupt cause of lag, then lag is the issue, not something that can't lag.

As for bitch roles, I've said it before, most players are bad at it or won't run it because they are bitch roles. You don't have fun doing it, you're not gonna be any good at what you do. Personally, if no human runs them, they should change the skill to something more interacting.

Yes, some teams exploit the strength of AI, but you can easily exploit their weaknesses. It's not like there's some code that prevents you from doing so.

Finally, don't automatically assume all opposing players are bad if they have a bunch of heroes on their team. 2-3 good players can't make up for whole team's incompetence, so how do heroes do it?

Shendaar · Dec 31, 2008, 03:48 PM // 15:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dmitri3

Interrupts were never easy to begin with. Interrupting 3/4's however shouldn't be a problem for experienced mesmer. And I'd rather have rez interrupted that some 1/4 or 1/2 cast.
What player lacks in response time, they make up in being able to optimize the effects of their skills. If you can't interrupt cause of lag, then lag is the issue, not something that can't lag.

You can micro heroes to interrupt rez, it's not hard.

Can real players reflex 1/4 cast? No, then it is a problem and should be dealt with. Nobody can reflex 1/4 even with 0 latency, but heroes can because they have instant reflex AND because they have no network latency. Heroes essentially break the balance of the game by having the ability to interrupt skills that were designed to be impossible to reflex interrupt.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dmitri3

As for bitch roles, I've said it before, most players are bad at it or won't run it because they are bitch roles. You don't have fun doing it, you're not gonna be any good at what you do. Personally, if no human runs them, they should change the skill to something more interacting.

Not relevant to the problem but ok I guess.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dmitri3

Yes, some teams exploit the strength of AI, but you can easily exploit their weaknesses. It's not like there's some code that prevents you from doing so.

Some teams? More like every single team with heroes bring them because of their abilities(short of the PvE guilds that can't even find their way out of their base). Them having weakness and being beatable does not make them any more fun to play against. I don't know about you, but I personally don't know anyone who actually enjoys playing against heroes and the gimmicks they spawn. They don't play with the same rules and that's very frustrating in a competitive game.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dmitri3

Finally, don't automatically assume all opposing players are bad if they have a bunch of heroes on their team. 2-3 good players can't make up for whole team's incompetence, so how do heroes do it?

I shouldn't assume, but it doesn't take a genius to spam 1234 on a palm strike sin while your 3 heroes instantly smite any shutdown they might throw at you.

Trylo · Dec 31, 2008, 04:35 PM // 16:35

actually i take back what i said. getting interrupted on 5 PnH in a row is not OK. im not even sure how that happened, they must have had both me/rt on me. i even staggered the casts so that they couldnt just hit it on recharge.

they also consistently got 1/2 cast prots

Dmitri3 · Dec 31, 2008, 04:49 PM // 16:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shendaar

You can micro heroes to interrupt rez, it's not hard.

True, still takes them not to spend it on something else before... but yeah.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shendaar

Can real players reflex 1/4 cast? No, then it is a problem and should be dealt with. Nobody can reflex 1/4 even with 0 latency, but heroes can because they have instant reflex AND because they have no network latency. Heroes essentially break the balance of the game by having the ability to interrupt skills that were designed to be impossible to reflex interrupt.

That's the real catch. I just gave Norgu 12 FC and went into Isle of Nameless with Psychic Instability (easy to spot when interrupted). He ignored all 1/4 casts (Master of Healing), interrupts 1 second cast at about half cast. He missed 1/4 cast once (one he didn't ignore) and even missed 1 second cast, for some reason.

From my experience, heroes are very good interrupters, but we can't alwats rely on what we feel. I propose to establish some kind of data on how well Heroes interrupt and only then think if they need a fix. I would've tested it more in depth in scrimmage, but it's 31th...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shendaar

Some teams? More like every single team with heroes bring them because of their abilities(short of the PvE guilds that can't even find their way out of their base). Them having weakness and being beatable does not make them any more fun to play against. I don't know about you, but I personally don't know anyone who actually enjoys playing against heroes and the gimmicks they spawn. They don't play with the same rules and that's very frustrating in a competitive game.

I agree with getting bored/frustrated. But, there's not a lot of alternatives to hero's builds, mainly because there's only a few they can run correctly. Believe me, if you played against same people with same builds all the time, even if they were real people, you would get bored anyway.
Actually improving the AI could lead to new and interesting use of heroes. But, since we all know it probably won't happen (GW2), I suppose this is just "wish talk".

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shendaar

I shouldn't assume, but it doesn't take a genius to spam 1234 on a palm strike sin while your 3 heroes instantly smite any shutdown they might throw at you.

Just saw [dR] vs [Shhh]. Yeah, it doesn't. I find it's more the issue with Palm Strike though.

TheOrangeFalcon · Dec 31, 2008, 06:32 PM // 18:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by bungusmaximus

In the past it was easier, beginners wanted to play the aformentioned bitch roles because it was a way to get teams. There's just less beginners now I think.

In the past, there was less rank hate too. THAT is what is driving away new pvpers and allowing more people to take heroes. In a world where you need to have r5/r6 hero to join a team it is impossible to do so. How does one get r5/r6 if one cant play because he doesn't have r5/r6? This is all rather off-topic though.

Heroes are good at interrupts. Too good. The fact that they CAN hit a 1/4 means they're too good. Even if they do miss a few other longer casts. It should be made so that they never hit a 1/4, almost never hit 1/2, and occasionally get the 3/4. This will make them on par with the average player so that a human can be a better choice.

Dmitri3 · Dec 31, 2008, 07:47 PM // 19:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheOrangeFalcon

Heroes are good at interrupts. Too good. The fact that they CAN hit a 1/4 means they're too good. Even if they do miss a few other longer casts. It should be made so that they never hit a 1/4, almost never hit 1/2, and occasionally get the 3/4. This will make them on par with the average player so that a human can be a better choice.

I'm not sure they do it at all, except by AoE interrupting something else. This needs further testing rather that basing it on "omg my RoF got interrupted 3 times nerf heroes!"

As for 3/4 activation time, it's not that hard for a human to interrupt it, so a bot shouldn't have any problems with that either.